Curse

coolsti · Dec 13, 2005, 11:27 AM // 11:27

.... Christmas morning is now weeks past, and Johnny's daddy had bought for him lots of GW game money and a set of green weapons from some unknown seller on eBay. Johnny was so surprised and happy when he logged into his GW account to find his new Christmas gifts. Not giftwrapped, mind, but in his inventory ready to be used. Now Johnny's character has the best weapons. And now Johnny's character has the best and prettiest armour, purchased with the virtual money his father got him for Christmas. No longer does Johnny's character need to struggle, Johnny has power. But what is this? Johnny doesn't look like he is enjoying himself. Johnny is unhappy? Let's listen to what Johnny is saying: "WHAAAAAAAAAGH! This game isn't any fun anymore!" ......

I cannot begin to understand the players that justify purchasing GW money and items using real world cash with the excuse that their playing time is limited and they don't want to waste time. What do they mean? Where are they going? The point of the PVE part of this game is to accumulate experience, skills, wealth and items while playing the missions and quests. That IS the game. What is the whole point of skipping over it to the end?

marco_costa · Dec 13, 2005, 12:21 PM // 12:21

u know what we could do? make a little guild that reserves 50% of all gold earned by all members for the guild account, we sell those leftovers on the net, split it equally and BANG! we get paid to indulge in our collective addiction :P

Psyks · Dec 13, 2005, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Buying GW items with real money is just as bad as cheating imo. you are getting someone else to do the work for you just like a cheat code or script would.

Sister Rosette · Dec 13, 2005, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Well to those pointing the finger at Anet for creating a need/want/market
for this service consider this:

A currency/item purchase option is available for pretty much every
MMO out there. Dark Age of Camelot, Runescape, WoW, even Ragnarok
Online, which is also based out of Korea. Some sites and companies are
legit and actually hire their workers, and they run pretty well inside
the law. Others are sweatshops like the OP has shown, and are little better
than slavery.

It's a pessimistic view, but Anet will never kill or eliminate this from happening.
In fact they're the only ones to even try to my knowledge. Other MMO's seem
to count it as support and (indirect) revenue for the game. Another factor is
most of them are pay-to-play, and thus may award their members more
freedoms and discretions.

There are simply too many ways to avoid notice for transactions of this nature, and unfortunately, sweatshops will continue to flourish both here
and across the pond. I have purchased Zeny in iRO from legit companies
before, I've talked to their farmers in-game. They're nice people, and what
they do is their job. It's not forced, they weren't pulled in off the
street. It's a business. It's just that some follow the rules, and others
ignore them. It's not the whole currency industry that's evil and shouldn't
be allowed, it's the back-alley slave pits that need to stop.

Just my .02$

dimirpaw · Dec 13, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

In the real world we live in today, people will always be looking for shortcuts. Even in games, real life, look at all of those scams on the net. If people are willing to be part of "Real Money" for "Game Items/Gold" ranting about it wont make it stop. Sure it may seem unfair to you? But is it fair that someone living in a poor country lives on the streets and eats worms for supper? Compared to some greedy Bill Gates living it up like theres no end to life?

Life isn't fair however if someone wishes to use their own money to buy something you are in no place to say "Thats Cheating!!" or "Well they are bad". People need to look at themselfs first before others, sure you can say its wrong to buy gold for a game online but your selling drugs on the street for money, maby even cheating on your Girlfriend or Boyfriend, who knows.

I really think it add's a less fun experince for others and does kill the in game market, but however people have jobs and familys and we don't play games 24/7 just to get some item that isn't even real. I personally don't buy online gold and items, however if there was something really hard to get and I had no time to look for it I would buy it online.

My real point here is, don't complain about people doing the "oh so very wrong thing" when you're not a person with a halo over your head with white wings who does nothing wrong yourself.

---

With those sweatshops in Korea/China or who know where. Those really should be shutdown however if people are willing to work there for pennys, thats up to them, unless they where forced to work for them it's no crime unless they are going against whatever labor laws they have.

dimirpaw · Dec 13, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyks

Buying GW items with real money is just as bad as cheating imo. you are getting someone else to do the work for you just like a cheat code or script would.

You cannot relate a cheat code to real money, you are giving something legit for something else legit, cheating is taking something without earning it, so you cannot say a person paying real money didn't earn it, or the person who is selling the item.

sleazeh · Dec 13, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimirpaw

You cannot relate a cheat code to real money, you are giving something legit for something else legit, cheating is taking something without earning it, so you cannot say a person paying real money didn't earn it, or the person who is selling the item.

er...what?

it's not "legit", according to the EULA, to exchange items or in-game gold for real life money. So it's actually alot like cheating.

The analogy he was making was that you haven't earned the item, by having it drop, or by purchasing it with in-game gold that you've earned through play. Would you also consider someone who bought a rank 9 account, or a set of fissure armor, for $60 to have earned it?

dimirpaw · Dec 13, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Well my views on this are diffrent then your views. I don't see any harm in spending your money on items and I don't call it cheating. Regaurdless of what others might think, I see cheating as doing something that puts you in a greater advantage over other players. Buying something with real money isn't a greater advantage over other players since we all have money, if we didn't how would anyone have a computer to play GW on?

If an item drops yes you have earned it, you earned it from spending the time to get it. If I spent hours and hours working towards an item and got it I would have earned it and would be very pleased to have it.

sleazeh · Dec 13, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

You're right, our views do not coincide. You condone violation of the EULA, and the purchase of items/accounts for cash. I do not. I call it "cheating", you call it something else.

Not much point in further discussion I suppose, given the fundamental difference between our respective approaches to the game.

dimirpaw · Dec 13, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Well if you wish to talk about this more PM me, however I never said I bought items, if you read my first post I said I have never bought items. However I do not see nothing wrong with buying them with your own money, it's just the same as if my friend gave me some nice armor and I helped him fix up his house on saturday... I guess I'm cheating there.

Mordakai · Dec 13, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

The point isn't getting some "advantage" over another player, since we all agree that most things you spend money on (Gold items, FoW armor, etc), won't give you that much of an advantage (FoW armor will give you no advantage.)

The point is it's against the EULA you agreed to by installing the game, and Anet could ban your account.

Is it worth losing all your characters to get FoW armor?

dimirpaw · Dec 13, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Your 100% right, I however wouldn't buy the items since it is against the EULA, however I have not installed or made any accounts therefore I'm not going against anything from stating what I think. Personally it isn't worth loosing a $60 game over buying an item over the internet.

I find it more fun just to earn it from playing, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't go against the EULA once I agreed to their terms and installed the game, it's just my thoughts on this subject which differ from what I would do.

Zerek · Dec 13, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Two things amaze me about this thread:

1. People are dismissing the EULA like its optional.
I hate to sound authoritative, but buying Guild Wars gold for real money is against the EULA. Period. The effect it has on the global economy is another argument entirely. But if you have no respect for the EULA then why not use game hacks? Make your own add-on programs and sell them? Spam/curse and otherwise be socially disruptive in-game? The EULA was created to maintain a better environment, especially important for the online gaming experience. I hope Arenanet takes appropriate action against accounts that dismiss these terms of agreement so easily.

2. The need for massive amounts of Guild Wars gold is a community-created illusion.
Fissure armor has the same stats as Forge armor. Green items are only marginally better than the high-level collector items. We’ve all been in PUGs that would not be saved by the best items in the universe. That’s because (IMO) Guild Wars really is about skill, and not hours played. Having the right skills equipped and knowing how to use accounts for about 95% of your character’s effectiveness. Items that are not readily available may add at most, another 5% to your character (as far as raw numbers are concerned). So maybe fissure armor just looks that freaking cool, but as far as a significant gaming advantage from having a zillion plat, there isn’t one.

It’s always interesting to me how much clamor there is over items. It’s like that guy you know who owns a brand new Gibson Les Paul, but doesn’t even know how to tune it. I wish players would spend less time trying to get the perfect gear, and more time learning their characters. I think PUGs worldwide would benefit.

dimirpaw · Dec 13, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Thats what games should be about, having fun with your chararcter and enjoying the game itself, not caring about getting billions of gold and all the items. Sure you might be happy when you have all of these things but the effect wares off.

Diablo™ · Apr 13, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Article: http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815

I think the majority of us have very much underestimated the seriousness when it comes to oversea sweatshop farmers. These underground farmers generate more profit than some of our legitimate full-time jobs, with it's ease of setup and rising demand, it's a self destructive spiraling effect that will ultimately doom the MMO genre itself.

Every facet of this business is disgusting, although some of the farmers themselves were grossly underpaid at mere 56 cents an hour, the ultimate share of the profit comes from ebaying their fictitious gold.

Quote:

"Smooth Criminal's game cartel made $1.5 million from Star Wars Galaxies alone last year, and individually, he's made as much as $700,000 in a single year."

With that much profit, its not hard to imagine that these criminals employ high-tech gadgets to deguise their bot's IP and multiple accounts. Their gold continues to stream into a filtered account, untraceable and uninterupted. This sort of profiteering is comparable to those of narcotic cartels and illegal arms trade.

Akhilleus · Apr 13, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

those kind of numbers beg one question...
why am i not running a GW sweatshop?

j/k...in all seriousness i dont think the ebaying of gold is as much an issue as the conditions and pay-grade those poor souls have to endure, however, though we look at the amount of 56 cents an hour with disgust (an appx $2,508USD per year for a job that children can [and probably do] participate in), many destitute people in foreign nations see that number as salvation, to them it is what a $5,000 paycheck is to us. while i'm all for the improvement of conditions of workers, at the same time to do so requires paying them less to make the same profit, and obviously people in this type of business care about nothing other than just that. so, as horrible and morally unsound as we in the western world see it, for people who are starving and deprived of work, its a job that pales in difficulty compared to the others they would ahve to chose from, and the pay is actually probably better than many jobs in that region of the world.
i should mention that the average chinese citizen has about $800USD in disposable income each year (whats left after taxes and living costs), most teenagers with a part-time minimum-wage job in this country make that much disposable income in a month [most dont pay living fees, their parents do].
my point is, ebay sucks in that it could ruin the game, but if people want to waste their money to feed some starving chinese guy and his 17 children, im all for that.

Diablo™ · Apr 13, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I'd imagine that it's not hard to justify that kind of profiting when compared with it's entertaining consequences. "My family's survival" vs "How fun Guild Wars will be in another year". It's sad how entropy just works itself into everything, and everything just works itself out of existence.

ophidian409 · Apr 13, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I don't really understand why only Chinese farm gold like that but no other sweatshop in other countries? there are other countries poorer than china.

Akhilleus · Apr 13, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I'd imagine that it's not hard to justify that kind of profiting when compared with it's entertaining consequences. "My family's survival" vs "How fun Guild Wars will be in another year". It's sad how entropy just works itself into everything, and everything just works itself out of existence.

as i said, us in the western world, where the "plight of the working man" has been an issue for sociologists, authors, revolutionaries, visionaries, philosophers, businessmen, unions and nations has been an issue (to a lesser or greater degree) for the past 300 years this type of thing is seen as the hell of modern society; the abused worker in horrible conditions, for horrible pay, for horrible hours...but it does not change the fact that for these millions of people, for most of them, it is the only job they can get. and if you were to ask me; "hey, would you rather play guildwars for 80 hours a week and get paid 56 cents an hour, or act as a human-vehicle, and cart people around central bangkok in one of those human-carrigaes for 60 cents an hour?" i'd most likely go with the former.
im not defending the moral side of it, merely the practical side...the moral side of arguments has a significant amount of weight and importance to it, but not when the alternative is starving to death.
i should mention i have no problem with the status quo with illigal immigration in the US, since as horrible as the conditions and pay are that they receive, they are still better than the conditions and pay they would endure for many jobs in their homeland...assuming they could actually get oen of these over-populated positions.

SnoopJeDi · Apr 13, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I think SWG might be a bad example on the figures, because there are minerals in that game, and they play an enourmous role in the game (artisians using bad materials make crap, good materials lead to great products). A lot of "farming" I saw when playing that game was automated by design. You just grind a master artisian, invest a little money in good mats, craft a ridiculous amount of high-quality, large mineral extractors, and scout around for the good stuff. When you find it, lay all your stuff down, collect the materials every now and then, and once the game rotates the materials, pick up and find another spot.

...anybody think maybe it's time to attack the sellers, and not the buyers? I know private domains often sell gold, but maybe ebay should at least re-evaluate letting people sell on their site.

[edit]Did not realize there was a second page to the article.

I personally can't take much value away from this article, without social context. For example, 56 cents american is worth a good pinch more in Mexico. I wonder how much it's worth over in some of these countries? I'm not endorsing it, but a little more information to put it all in context would be helpful.